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  #16  
Old 06-12-2016, 03:42 AM
markalex markalex 目前線上
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. It works for me and I hope that the product meets expectation too [/QUOTE]

Have you ordered some then ed?if so i will be interested to know your opinions on arrival.
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  #17  
Old 06-12-2016, 06:33 AM
EdCourtney EdCourtney 目前離線
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Hi Mark,

Not yet! I have been pondering the light source for my next build and whether to stick with T5, go hybrid, or go full LED.
My last LED experience was very disappointing and I've been unimpressed with all but the LANI until now. I hadn't even heard of the Coral Care until very recently.
I've been trying to get a price for the LANI for ages and frankly I've just about given up on that product. If you can't even get a price on a product then what sort of after sales service can you expect?
That Philips have stepped up is a major plus point I reckon.
None of the hobby brands currently supplying LED are going to be able to design and manufacture an LED aquarium lighting fixture that performs better, or at a similarly reasonable price point, of that I am certain.
The Coral Care is top of my short list now, just ahead of the LANI, but I think when they finally get around to releasing their latest prices for LANI it will be obscenely expensive, on a par with the SR360, which uses Philips diodes anyhoo.
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  #18  
Old 06-12-2016, 09:58 AM
EdCourtney EdCourtney 目前離線
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The information I had been reading about the SR360 turns out to be a little out of date, I've just read the manual, which doesn't have a date but I assume it is the latest, which says Cree LED.

Found some news on the LANI at last!, disappointing that this information isn't available via the website or forum. Still no price but they have engaged a manufacturer (CBK) to produce the LANI in Germany, there may be hope yet but at the moment it feels like it will be an expensive/exclusive product.
It's interesting that they are adding additional LED's, Philips rational is that they are unnecessary for the coral and only serve as a visual enhancement for our benefit.
Since I began writing this the October release date has just appeared on the Triton website.

http://meerwasserlive.de/triton-core...interzoo-2016/
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  #19  
Old 06-12-2016, 01:46 PM
markalex markalex 目前線上
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Do they not sell the lani ones anymore then?
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  #20  
Old 06-13-2016, 12:28 PM
EdCourtney EdCourtney 目前離線
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Hi Mark,

Not at the moment from what I can tell but apparently they will be available again from October. I guess the interruption in availability is due to engaging an external manufacturer and all the complications that go with that, must be a technical and contractual nightmare! I've joined the mailing list to keep tabs better anyhoo.
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  #21  
Old 06-13-2016, 03:28 PM
waterchange scandal waterchange scandal 目前離線
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Hi Ed.
Yes some pictures can be very misleading, (no doubts Thomas Pohl's show tank ).
Right, if the client can't get the necessary water quality, Coral Care will not improve totally the look of his corals.
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  #22  
Old 06-14-2016, 04:14 AM
EdCourtney EdCourtney 目前離線
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Hi waterchange scandal,

Indeed!

One of the reasons I'm now considering LED again is that i'm planning on using Triton on my next build so the use of T5, as prescribed by Mr Pohl, isn't so much of an important consideration for me anymore, and neither should be the instability of water chemistry which is an issue for a lot of people using Zeovit.
I'm increasing my budget for my next build, I could use Zeovit again and improve on how I did it last time, but I want to try something different which requires less attention and I have always been attracted to the idea of a method of water quality management that is as biological as possible and provides as natural an environment for the livestock as possible, while being competitive on maintenance costs, including energy use.

I was still leaning toward T5 however, or perhaps an ATI Power Module Hybrid, even though the LANI looks attractive, both technically and aesthetically, because of initial purchase cost, availability and the potential for reliability issues.

But Philips present a convincing and compelling case for the Coral Care with their transparent publicly available data, development history and technical descriptions, which have been subjected to further scrutiny on Reef Central and admirably supported by Luc Vogels, and of course purchase cost.
I totally accept that the test of time in practical application is still required, but one has to recognise the similarity between the Coral Care and the LANI One, which has apparently worked well, all be it without the same transparent data to back those claims and just a very sexy DT as proof.

The one point that really concerns me about Triton though is that I have never seen the sump layout for the DT in Dusseldorf, which is used as their primary marketing tool. They say "look at our great DT full of lovely coral and a large spawning clam, look at the lovely LANI that lights it all" but you never see the engine room, which is the most important aspect of the Triton Method. You don't get to see the skimmer they use, you don't get to see the dosing system they use and possibly most importantly you don't get to see the algae refugium or the carbon and AL99 arrangment. This is way more important than a sexy tank shot as far as I'm concerned, otherwise how do we know that by following their recommendations those results demonstrated by their DT are achievable? I like transparency and this is something that has always been lacking from the hobby brands, you know what mean?
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  #23  
Old 06-14-2016, 02:14 PM
markalex markalex 目前線上
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Your right on the transparency,its never entirely clear how most companys have achieved there results and kz are no different if it wasnt for this forum and particularly Alexander then information from korallen zucht would be pretty thin on the ground.That being said there are some products coral snow for one that i would use whatever method i used i think.
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  #24  
Old 06-14-2016, 03:15 PM
EdCourtney EdCourtney 目前離線
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Hi Mark,

Totally agree with you, especially regarding Alex. It would all fall over if it wasn't for his expert knowledge and guidance. That the system needs that level of commitment from someone to help people tune it in strikes me as a flaw. When I began using Zeo it was on the strength of the guide, but that only just about scratches the surface of what you need to know to use the system effectively. I still like it though, it's very clever and works with amazing efficacy once you've got it dialed in but it just requires a bit too much attention and it is expensive.

I'll definitely continue to use some KZ products, Coral Snow being one of them
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  #25  
Old 06-15-2016, 03:13 AM
waterchange scandal waterchange scandal 目前離線
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Hi Ed.
The transparency, well, maybe they hide their investigation because one person could copy very easy the product (Zeostar = Sugar+vinegar+methanol or ethanol). Or they hide their investigation because they have to the international space station engineers working in the sump (Triton). jeje. Yesterday I saw Triton's web, I knew that they are in the hobbie, but I don't know something of their method. My opinion of them is with that water analysis machine they can get a very high quality water in the tank. And for that reason they don't need a high sophisticated equipment in their engine room.
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  #26  
Old 06-15-2016, 05:14 AM
EdCourtney EdCourtney 目前離線
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Hi waterchange scandal.

My opinion of them is with that water analysis machine they can get a very high quality water in the tank. And for that reason they don't need a high sophisticated equipment in their engine room.

This is very true, in part.
The ICP-OES testing is the most accurate available within the hobby at the moment, it's a proper lab grade method of water analysis, but this is only one aspect of the method and is used to determine a prescription for dosing elements and any problem solving. The dosing of the Base Elementz to maintain chemical stability is another, and this ideally requires very accurate dosing pumps, having done some research most on the market aren't very accurate and have a short working life span before they become a liability, see Neptune DoS for an example of a proper dosing pump and not an over priced toy. The use of an algae stage in the sump, of 10% - 20% of DT volume, to process nutrient and provide food for the corals, coupled with strong skimming (just like Zeo) and carbon/phosphate media is another, with adequate and appropriate lighting (just like Zeo) being the last.

It's the filtration I most want to see. Do they use only 10% - 20% of DT volume, as recommended, or do they use more? How many algae species do they use and which? What sort of skimmer do they use, what is the ratio of it's capacity to system volume? How much carbon and phosphate media are they using and what is the flow through the reactor/s?
Detail is absolutely crucial in this hobby, it's the finer detail that determines whether you will have success, or experience failure and failure can be expensive as well as being cruel to your animals.

As I've previously alluded to, I don't intend to use any phosphate removing media and plan to rely entirely on algae, skimmer, carbon and some supplementary bacterial dosing, but also to have capacity to process a high bioload. At present my sump design has algae capacity of 34.05% of DT volume and accommodates a Revolution M skimmer, for a system with gross volume of around 700L. This is subject to potential change but I'm not taking any chances this time

Maybe people could copy the products, such as Zeostart, but so what? That's the nature of competition, how may companies manufacture skimmers, produce salt, etc., etc.? If you keep secrets and/or mislead people and end up with a lot of dissatisfied customers then the end result isn't good for your company anyway. I just get the impression with a lot of these brands and their systems/products that they deliberately leave the finer detail out, reel you in with a lot of simplified, positive marketing talk and beautiful imagery which then leads to problems for many people and increased reliance and expense on products/advice. Once you've made that initial commitment to a system/product, they've got you and they know that. Call me cynical if you will, but the evidence speaks for itself.
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  #27  
Old 06-15-2016, 06:55 PM
waterchange scandal waterchange scandal 目前離線
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Hi Ed.
The dosing pumps, well, I have a GHL doser 2 since a month. I was cheking it from 3 weeks with a insuline syringe. I was desillutioned the first week because I wanted 0.2 ml and sometimes the syringe has 0.14, 0.7, 0.12, 0.25 due to evaporation in the hose and continuous calibration. I thought in the evaporation and I installed a neddle in the hose, (like picture). The pump on the right is for Xtra, I stopped it due Alexander's advice.
Now the pump works well, 0.10, 0.10 0.09 0.10.....four times a day. With this pump is possible settings of 0.10 - 0.20 - 0.30 ml. But if you fool the Doser in his configuration, you can set dosings like 0.12 or 0.38 for example all times. I would need "say" to the doser that he is dosing more or less than 5 ml in a minute. I did that with my pump, 4.8 ml instead of 5ml. I think this doser is very accurate for the moment but .....jeje. I will check it once a week. For this, I told you that I think that Triton maybe has not very sophisticated equipment in the engine room, or maybe yes jeje.
I think I don't understand you well (I'm spanish), but if someone copied the product and he explains that is easy the process in internet. Maybe, It would be a lost of money for the company.
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  #28  
Old 06-16-2016, 05:42 AM
EdCourtney EdCourtney 目前離線
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Hi waterchange scandal,

That's interesting what you've done with your doser, I'm impressed by your commitment to precision.

If I won the lottery this is what I would go for, but I think I might have trouble fitting more than one of these under the stand :

http://www.coleparmer.co.uk/Product/...0V/OU-77921-75





Everyone copies products these days, that's the nature of free market capitalism and competition, who ever can meet demand while providing the desired quality at the best price wins. More people are bringing Probiotic systems into the market now and it's only a matter of time before a comparable but cheaper alternative becomes available.
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  #29  
Old 06-16-2016, 10:49 AM
EdCourtney EdCourtney 目前離線
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Hi,

Back to the subject of over priced gimmickry within the hobby, and especially regarding LED lighting, this product exemplifies the point:

https://reefbuilders.com/2016/05/27/...upyled-can-do/

I really don't know what to say about this without going into full rant mode, but the phrase 'more money than sense' springs to mind
Isn't it just typical that a toy has been chosen as a top 10 product over either the LANI or the Coral Care?
Someone, possibly a child in an adults body, was literally blinded by BS me thinks

Can anyone point to anything about this that might actually be of some practical benefit and begin to justify the price tag?
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  #30  
Old 06-17-2016, 04:32 AM
EdCourtney EdCourtney 目前離線
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Hi,

And..... back to copying products, isn't this just Triton Base Elementz without the Ca and Mg?



Four bottles, four groupings of base elements by a different name. Without going into a precise chemical analysis I think it's fair to say that the concept and, probably, the grouping of elements in each bottle are more or less the same. Everyone's at it, all's fair in love and war
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