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  #16  
Old 12-16-2017, 05:36 PM
SantaMonica SantaMonica 目前離線
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Copepods eat algae, so the more algae, the more copepods. And then more amphipods.

Pods don't grow inside rock, they grow on it, if the surface has periphyton coverage (which would include some algae).

And yes a skimmer adds oxygen, but it cannot super-saturate with oxygen like algae can. The zeo itself, however, consumes oxygen.
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  #17  
Old 12-17-2017, 12:22 PM
gguertin145 gguertin145 目前離線
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I was hoping that running carbon would get rid of the yellow color to my water running a scrubber but it just doesnt. Have you come up with a solution for that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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  #18  
Old 12-17-2017, 02:29 PM
SantaMonica SantaMonica 目前離線
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Yellow is caused by a waterfall going too long before cleaning. The bottom layers die and turn yellow. Just clean more often.

Upflows don't have this problem.
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  #19  
Old 02-01-2018, 10:13 PM
SantaMonica SantaMonica 目前離線
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Chaeto Reactors compared to Algae Scrubbers, part 3



Now for nutrients.

Nutrients are defined as inorganics, not organics. The word "nutrient" is sometimes confused with "nutrition", and maybe in restaurants the words might mean the same thing, but for aquarists they are totally different. Nutrition food particles are mostly visible, but nutrients are invisible, and for aquariums the nutrients are:

Ammonia/ammonium
Urea (pee)
Nitrite
Nitrate
Phosphate
Iron
CO2

Organics: These are food particles, and most of them big enough to see. They can be apples, pellets, nori, baby brine shrimp, flakes, peanut butter, poop, mucus, leaves, twigs, fish eggs, and other types of detritus, all of which are eaten/consumed by some type of organism. Organics are usually very visible when concentrated, and only after the organics get digested by a long chain of animals and bacteria do organics become invisible inorganics (this is called remineralisation, because they are now basic minerals once again). Organic food particles (which include waste) can be large, small, or dissolved, and if dissolved in water then the water may be cloudy or clear. For example, if you take mucus and blend it in water, the resulting dissolved organics would be invisible. Natural reefs are very highly loaded with organics, especially at night (sometimes a night diver cannot see his own hand because of the camera light reflecting off of the mass of particles). Lakes even more so, so much that sometimes you cannot see more than a meter underwater in full daylight. Aquarium keepers however tend to want ultra clear water, where all the natural food particles are removed from the water.

Algal Structure: The structure of algal cells make the algae thick or thin; solid or soft. The thinner the algae is, the more surface area it has, just like small particles of sand have more surface area than larger pebbles do. This increased surface area has more contact with water around it and thus can pull in nutrients faster. And the softer the algae is, the less structural cellulose-like material (like celery) it has. Hard structural cells, like celery, are great for holding a shape but bad for photosynthesis because there are less photosynthetic cells like there are in a leaf; so harder/stiffer algae absorb nutrients slower. Therefore for faster nutrient absorption, you want thin and soft algae.

Chaeto: Has a firm structure that holds it's shape, and is about 1 mm in thickness. Nutrient absorption is slow.

Green Hair: Has a soft structure that does not hold its shape, and is about 0.1 mm in thickness. Nutrient absorption is fast.

Slime: A different category altogether.

Light: Photosynthesis does all the nutrient filtering, and it requires light; if the light is reduced, then filtering is reduced. Two facets of algal cells can alter the light: Translucency and self-shading. Translucency is the ability of light to go through a strand of algae; if light can do this, the light can reach cells further inside or on the other side of the strand and do more filtering there. Self-shading is when one strand of algae shades another strand; when this happen to a large degree, the growth of inner portions of a clump of algae slows down or dies, as outer growth is added over it. Thus the clump may appear to be increasing is size but the inner portions will actually be dying and putting nutrients back into the water, sometimes faster than the newer outer layers are taking the nutrients out of the water. And the larger the clump is, the more the inside starts dying. Only the outside portion grows.

Chaeto: Non-translucent (opaque), with high shading of other strands.

Green Hair: Medium to high translucency, with medium shading.

Slime: Low translucency when thick, and high shading.

The graphs of the following study show the light-blocking characteristics of chaeto: "Production within dense mats of the filamentous macroalga Chaetomorpha linum in relation to light and nutrient availability"

http://www.int-res.com/articles/meps/134/m134p207.pdf

Fig 5B shows how, under bright light, chaeto productivity (filtering) drops 72 percent with just 2 cm of chaeto thickness. And this does not take into account any dying chaeto underneath.

With green hair algae however, the green hair filaments are very thin, and translucent, so light and water flow spread throughout the algae, thus maximizing filtering. No part of the algae is "on the dark side of the growth" like it is on almost all parts of chaeto.
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  #20  
Old 04-11-2018, 07:19 AM
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Clavius Clavius 目前離線
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Sorry for reviving this old thread. The supposed additional benefits of an algae reactor really got me triggered, so I decided to experiment.

For five months I've been trying to keep Chaeto alive in a store-bought reactor. I've added 8 batches of Chaeto to it, just to have it die off the same way each an every time. I experimented with the flow through the reactor. Changed the light intensity, duration and spectrum. Added a source of iron. And even took my Zeoreactor offline and did heavy feeding to give the algae more nutrients to feed on. (How insane am I?) It was always the same result: The Chaeto algae slowly turned into a heap of grey snot. I can't, for the life of me, keep Chaeto alive. Only with a large amount of nutrients (NO3 more then 2, PO3 at 0.03) the algae would stay alive for a few weeks longer. That amount of nutrients is detrimental to coral coloring and surely doesn't mimic natural seawater levels.

My coral colors were starting to suffer and I really don't want to take any more risks then I already did. I have restored the Zeovit biology to it's usual steady performance.

The biggest risk of it all was a shattered center tunnel that holds the LED lights that were supposed to grow the algae. One day I came home and the whole room smelled of burned electronics. The leds had made contact with aquarium-water. I could have poisoned by entire reef with copper. Or could even have burned my house down.

So, after those five months my conclusion can only be that the Zeovit method, which is challenging enough to some people, is a lot more dependable and easier then keeping algae. I would never want to be dependent on such a unreliable process.
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  #21  
Old 04-11-2018, 10:11 PM
ohashimz ohashimz 目前離線
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clavius View Post
Sorry for reviving this old thread. The supposed additional benefits of an algae reactor really got me triggered, so I decided to experiment.

For five months I've been trying to keep Chaeto alive in a store-bought reactor. I've added 8 batches of Chaeto to it, just to have it die off the same way each an every time. I experimented with the flow through the reactor. Changed the light intensity, duration and spectrum. Added a source of iron. And even took my Zeoreactor offline and did heavy feeding to give the algae more nutrients to feed on. (How insane am I?) It was always the same result: The Chaeto algae slowly turned into a heap of grey snot. I can't, for the life of me, keep Chaeto alive. Only with a large amount of nutrients (NO3 more then 2, PO3 at 0.03) the algae would stay alive for a few weeks longer. That amount of nutrients is detrimental to coral coloring and surely doesn't mimic natural seawater levels.

The biggest risk of it all was a shattered center tunnel that holds the LED lights that were supposed to grow the algae. One day I came home and the whole room smelled of burned electronics. The leds had made contact with aquarium-water. I could have poisoned by entire reef with copper. Or could even have burned my house down.

So, after those five months my conclusion can only be that the Zeovit method, which is challenging enough to some people, is a lot more dependable and easier then keeping algae. I would never want to be dependent on such a unreliable process.

myself along with couple of hard core zeovit users have chaetos reactor with good success.
lets me start by saying chaeto reactor in zeovit is not super critical, I use it just to populate copidos for my fish not for algae or PO4 control.
the trick in keeping chaetos in proper zeovit system (UNLS) is spectrum and additives. because NO3/PO4 is so low in zeovit. so proper LED or light source is important. I have experimented couple of times and settled on a kessil H80, which BTW is bit overkill. in the past I used red/white LED strip from amazon that worked just as good.
also the light period is very important, with 24h light period as an example Chaeto die off. best photo period for me was 6-8 hours which I do when main system light is off. I usually clean the inside of my reactor once a month to make sure the light penetrate the reactor well.
finally Chaetos need Iron, Iodin and some nutrient. I maintain iron and iodin level by dosing them and ICP test to fine tune the value. irone dosing is bit risky and if overdosed it will creat algae issues, so it should be done carefully.
in my system (PO4 0.01/ NO3 0.25) my chaetos grow very good and I need to remove and throw away weekly.

again zeovit do not need chaetos, I am using it for specific purpose which is copidos
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  #22  
Old 04-12-2018, 01:52 AM
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Clavius Clavius 目前離線
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohashimz View Post
myself along with couple of hard core zeovit users have chaetos reactor with good success.
lets me start by saying chaeto reactor in zeovit is not super critical, I use it just to populate copidos for my fish not for algae or PO4 control.
the trick in keeping chaetos in proper zeovit system (UNLS) is spectrum and additives. because NO3/PO4 is so low in zeovit. so proper LED or light source is important. I have experimented couple of times and settled on a kessil H80, which BTW is bit overkill. in the past I used red/white LED strip from amazon that worked just as good.
also the light period is very important, with 24h light period as an example Chaeto die off. best photo period for me was 6-8 hours which I do when main system light is off. I usually clean the inside of my reactor once a month to make sure the light penetrate the reactor well.
finally Chaetos need Iron, Iodin and some nutrient. I maintain iron and iodin level by dosing them and ICP test to fine tune the value. irone dosing is bit risky and if overdosed it will creat algae issues, so it should be done carefully.
in my system (PO4 0.01/ NO3 0.25) my chaetos grow very good and I need to remove and throw away weekly.

again zeovit do not need chaetos, I am using it for specific purpose which is copidos
I agree, I've been running a zeovit system with great success for 10 years now. The Zeovit system is more then capable of nutrient control. But I would even go as far as saying that with todays skimmers Zeovit isn't even super critical anymore. Because ULNS parameters can now easily be reached with modern skimmers.

The only reason why I wanted to add the chaeto reactor, as I stated, was for the secondary benefits, like supersaturated oxygen, more pods, stability, etc.

A kessil in a chaeto reactor?!? How does that work btw?
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  #23  
Old 04-12-2018, 02:00 AM
ohashimz ohashimz 目前離線
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clavius View Post
I agree, I've been running a zeovit system with great success for 10 years now. The Zeovit system is more then capable of nutrient control. But I would even go as far as saying that with todays skimmers Zeovit isn't even super critical anymore. Because ULNS parameters can now easily be reached with modern skimmers.

The only reason why I wanted to add the chaeto reactor, as I stated, was for the secondary benefits, like supersaturated oxygen, more pods, stability, etc.

A kessil in a chaeto reactor?!? How does that work btw?
I agree with your sentiment but lets be careful about the claim that skimmer alone can give UNLS. skimmers main function and theory of operation did not change much what changed in skimmers is technology (DC pumps, needle, controllability..etc)
I do not agree that good skimmer alone is enough for UNLS unless if we are talking about a light bio load.
zeovit is much more than just removing nutrients (which is the main and only function of a skimmer).
but again I understand your sentiment.
Kessil H380 is light build for vegetation, its spectrum is tuned for vegetation growth. I retrofitted a reactor with the kessil H380. but again it was way overkill. I got the same growth using cheap (but with right spectrum) LED strip that I wrapped around the reactor.
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  #24  
Old 04-14-2018, 11:08 PM
SantaMonica SantaMonica 目前離線
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Quote:
removing nutrients (which is the main and only function of a skimmer)
Except that, skimmers don't remove nutrients (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, metals, CO2.) They do remove food particles, however.

Kinda like the difference between removing the smoke from grilling a steak, and removing the steak itself. One you want to keep, the other you don't.
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  #25  
Old 04-15-2018, 01:44 AM
ohashimz ohashimz 目前離線
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SantaMonica View Post
Except that, skimmers don't remove nutrients (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, metals, CO2.) They do remove food particles, however.

Kinda like the difference between removing the smoke from grilling a steak, and removing the steak itself. One you want to keep, the other you don't.
Well said. Agreed.
That's why I do not look at skimmers yo be main nutrient control rather one important element in a nutrient control ecosystem
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