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  #1  
Old 11-27-2017, 02:03 AM
iamchadster iamchadster 目前線上
ZEOhead in Training
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 19
Default The Dreaded Dino and Zeovit Paradox

Well all had been going well for about 2 months on zeovit. Here is the info on my tank and the first thread that I posted regarding my perceived success.

http://zeovit.com/forums/showthread....135#post334135

Now keep in mind I have been in the hobby for years, but never had that amazing tank IMO that I believe you can achieve with this system. Also, to me it seemed so simple. I mean a filter sock and a reactor in my sump was about it. I was able to pull out all of the reactors and fuge stuff and really clean up and simplify my system which I loved.

Now the bad news. Last week or maybe 2 weeks ago I started noticing some brown (diatoms?) looking color to my sandbed. It would go away at night and doing the weekly water changes usually stirred things up enough that it really wasn't very noticeable. All livestock is great including multiple SPS etc so If figured I'd wait it out.

My Zeohead mentor noticed the brown color in a photo I sent one time and expressed some concern, but again I ignored it. We tweaked my dosing a bit as we thought I may have been overdosing the tank.

Went to No start, about 1/2 the bak dose 3 days/week (3 drops now), No SP, BM 6 drops daily.

Tried that for a few days but to my dismay the tank exploded with Dinos. I don't have to post a pic cause it is a classic case and looks exactly like all of the photos I've seen. Bubble floating off of little stringy snot-like brown algae and it spread all over. The back glass, my pumps, the sand bed, you name it. However all of the liverock and animals seem to be ok so far IOW the Dino's have not attached well to the livestock, Yet.

I spent hours upon hours over the last few days reading every forum about Dinos/treatments etc . including all I could find here on the forum.

Sadly it seems like all of the successes are met with someone later on saying, well that didn't work for me. So I figure that the challenge of this comes down to roughly three issues I can think of.

1. People likely don't know what they have and treat it with the wrong therapy. Like treating a virus with an anti-biotic. So many of these algaes look alike that it becomes tough for the untrained eye to know exactly what they have.
2. The multiple species of each of these critter. Some are photosynthetic, some aren't. Variation in susceptibility to the different treatments certainly points to differences in anatomy/physiology between species. Not to mention the variability in everyone's tank alone.
3. The lack of good information out there and controlled studies/treatments to guide us when this stuff starts attacking.

So at this point I'm taking a little of what I have read in all the forums and will be performing really a multi-prong approach to the eradication of these little buggers. I will try to document all that I do but for now I'm sticking to the plan to see if it works. I realize that even though what I will try may or may not work it won't work for all but I have to do something or I fear that my system will be in real trouble.

Here's the plan:
1. I scrubbed as much off the back wall/glass/sand bed as I could while increasing the flow through my skimmer and inside my tank my kicking up my 2 maxpsect gyre xf250 pumps on either side of my tank. Things are really moving around now, but I want a lot of turbulence on all surfaces if possible.
2. Post all of the cleaning the water was hazy and filled with pieces Dino floating around everywhere. I hit it with a dose of CS plus to try and clean things up a bit. It worked and the skimmer and filter sock was dirty quicker and required cleaning sooner than normal.
3. I changed out the carbon with about 500-600 mL of fresh carbon. It's the Rox stuff from BRS which generally isn't recommend but if the Dinos are releasing toxins I want em absorbed if possible.
4. I am attempting the pH increase to 8.7 as outlined by someone on another forum as elevated pH as been shown to kill some of the types of Dinos. I mixed up Kalwasser at 2 tsp/gal of water and put it on my neptune Dos pump delivering 3780 mL/day. The goal is to slowly increase the pH to 8.7 in 0.1 to 0.3 increments per day. Today my pH his 8.36 and I am on day 3 of the plan. I will keep the pH there during the day, with a dip at night which has been said to be ok for 2-4 weeks. (I'm watching my Alk, I stopped my Ca reactor's CO2 solenoid and it tested at 7.1 tonight)
5. I covered the tank well with black garbage bags and am going lights out for 3 days. I have done this before by itself when I had Dinos before without any luck. This time I am going to run mainly blue spectrum for the next several days. I read this technique as well and to not immediately go full normal light schedule so you can watch and see if any patches start to show. Again I think you need to attack these guys with multiple means.
6. Here's where you guys come in. From what I know, I believe that the balance we create with dosing bak and feeding it keeps many of these less desirable algaes etc away. I think my bacteria population dwindled opening up the chance for the Dinos to grow and use the resources that the good bacteria would have used. So with that, I'm changing my dosing regimen back to somewhat of the start which was the basic 4 at recommended dosage for my net volume of 125ish gallons. 5 drops bak (I went 6), zeostart 0.5 mL twice daily, and yes I'm adding back in zeofood7 at 5 drops. This may defy logic of someone on here, but again everyone has a different formula and the results are far less successful in most cases than I would like to see. I am going to continue this regimen for about a week. By then the lights out will be over and I will be able to see what if anything is happening. I may cut back to 2 to 3 times a week with the basic 4 and continue my high pH for the 2-4 weeks as outlined above.

Again I don't have a good flow chart of how to rid the tank of these guys and I'm not gonna just break it down or give up but I think with a little effort and luck I can get em. I will post my results and any changes in course as I go over the next month.

Chad
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  #2  
Old 11-27-2017, 04:34 PM
markalex markalex 目前線上
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: middx uk
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Good luck,will be interested to see how you get on.
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  #3  
Old 11-27-2017, 09:55 PM
iamchadster iamchadster 目前線上
ZEOhead in Training
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 19
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Thanks, I will let you know. As soon as I went lights out 24/7 the pH likes to drop. I presents a bit of a challenge as I have now supersaturated my Kalk solution to add enough to keep the pH elevated without the normal daily photosynthesis. Two more full days from now and I will unveil the results at least to this point. I hope to find a mostly white sandbed and less thick growth when I go lights back on.
The plan will then be to keep the pH where it is and only run a "bluer" spectrum only for the next 5-7 days at a reduced duration. I haven't decided yet and am still doing research, piecing together what to do post removing the dark shade I have covering the tank. I know for certain that the pH will remain elevated, I am just still contemplating how to reintroduce lighting.
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  #4  
Old 11-29-2017, 12:51 AM
iamchadster iamchadster 目前線上
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Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 19
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Day 2 and the tank still remains wrapped like an early x-mas gift lol. I am anxious to take off the cover tomorrow night for the full 72hr lights out portion of this battle to see if any difference is seen.

Some things I've noticed: Lights out makes it really tough to get the pH up in that goal range of 8.6/8.7. I have had to really supplement with a supersaturated Kalk solution at almost 5,000 mL per day. Luckily alk has stayed pretty good so far. Also, as the tank is covered with plastic, evap has been relatively nothing. Supplementing with RODI/Kalk has lowered the PPT a bit and raised my sump level so be careful in that respect. I cranked up the skimmer to wet skim for a bit to remove some excess tank water. I continue to dose with bak 6 drops/start 1 mL/food 6 drops and consistently knead the bag of carbon to try and get any toxins released from the dying (hopefully) dinos.
I anticipate once I go partial lights on the day after tomorrow, Thurs, that my Kalk demand will be less as I get some pH boost from the photosynthesis that will start up again. Currently my plan will be run about a 5 hour light schedule at a mostly blue color via my four Radions.
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  #5  
Old 11-30-2017, 12:16 AM
iamchadster iamchadster 目前線上
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Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 19
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Day 3

Cover is off and wow! Sandbed looks like new although there is some biomass of the stuff left on the back glass. All of the animals are fine and the corals don't really look that stressed. I just did a phosphate reading and the po4 is up to 0.16 from less than 0.03. Quite a hike for not feeding the tank at all but I am attributing this to the dying dinos. I am going to dose the tank with some CSplus tonight as I don't think it can hurt and should help bring the po4 down a bit as more die-off occurs. It's tempting to want to do a water change, but I'm going to continue down the same path and direction that I have started.

Days 4-7 I only plan on running the very blue spectrum of my LED's for 5 hours per day. I will then slowly over the following week, days 7-10 reintroduce light towards a more broad spectrum.

As expected with dosing the kalk, my Alk increased a bit to 8.0 as I have tried to push the pH up with a 3 tsp/gallon mix of kalkwasser but I could only get the pH up to 8.3. I've had to keep a maxijet pump in the kalk bucket to keep the supersaturated mixture in suspension. My Neptune DOS pump is putting about 5,000 mL into my system per day. One of the problems I was having was that as the tank was completely covered in plastic that evaporation was very nominal. My topoff pump never ran the entire 72 hours as the amount of kalkwasser was more than enough to compensate for any minimal evap. So I had to remove a little tankwater which I did by just a couple hours of some wet skimming.

For the next three weeks it will simply be a slow adjustment back to where I started, keeping the pH higher and slowly introducing more light. I will then stop the dosing of the kalkwasser at the end of the 4 week period of time.

I continue to dose daily; bak 6 drops, start 1mL, food 6 drops, knead carbon well. My hope is to have such a thriving bacteria population that not only will I get to that goal ULNS, but any Dino left in the system will scream and run.

I have to give a shout out to HCOOP, who has personally helped get me into the zeo method. I didn't anticipate this trouble obviously, but when I sent him the pic of what was happening in my system his first guess was to consider it being Dinos. So far based on the response of the system to my methods I am agreeing with him.

All of the above of course will be dictated based on the health of the system. If I see any change in animals or returning of the Dinos then I will have to make adjustments.

Comments welcome.
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  #6  
Old 11-30-2017, 12:20 AM
iamchadster iamchadster 目前線上
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Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 19
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Argh, I forgot to mention that I am going to begin feeding the fish that I have in the system again. I feed Larry's Reef Frenzy, with some Hikari Extreme Seaweed Pellets. Enough for the fish to eat in about 2-3 minutes and only once per day in the a.m.
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  #7  
Old 12-02-2017, 04:28 AM
iamchadster iamchadster 目前線上
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Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 19
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Days 4 and 5 were fairly uneventful. Same dosing of basic 4. Seeing very little return of the active dinos right now. Scrubbed a bit of the dead biomass off the glass and what I could reach and am only leaving the lights on for a 4 hour duration of all blue spectrum.

The sand is pristine with no sign of Dino growth. I am doing the best I can to maintain a pH of 8.7, but I am not home during the day and have found the best way to keep this up is with a thick slurry mixed in a cup and poured into a high-flow area. pH goes up and it minimizes the amount of Kalkwasser I was adding to the tank affecting the PPT.

I will test PO4 tomorrow, also on Sunday (day 7) will begin to introduce a bit of a broader spectrum of light and see if anything begins to resurface. pH will stay around 8.7 for at least 30 days.
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  #8  
Old 12-04-2017, 12:32 AM
iamchadster iamchadster 目前線上
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Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 19
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Approximately one week of treatment. I have taken multiple opportunities to remove any biomass left behind from the dying of Dinos. All animals look to be doing well and handling the elevated pH fine (maintaining 8.7).

Added one hour to my light schedule-was 4 hours, bumping up to 5 hours as of today and a look at the tank tonight looks good. I can still see some slight brown areas in a couple areas of lower flow in the tank but I am pretty certain that it's heading in the right direction.

So over the next 3 weeks I am going to maintain the elevated pH and slowly work my light schedule back to what it was before.

Dosing schedule is the same-daily (bak 6 drops, start 0.5 mL am/pm, food 6 drops.) Have not done a water change either.

I realize some of what I'm doing certainly goes against the zeo system, but after hours of research I can't seem to find a slam dunk answer on how to get rid of these critters and take control back of the tank. I believe that there isn't one right answer and that's why I'm taking this multipronged approach here and so far I think I am winning.

I will post if there are any significant changes, but over the course of the next 3 weeks it will be slow increases in light schedule, continued dosing (I haven't determined if I'm gonna go down in frequency on bak/food yet as I'm making progress) and a slow return to a pH of around 8.0-8.2 as the tank was before.

If I didn't mention it before I had taken the Ca reactor offline and shut the co2 off as it would battle the effort to raise the pH and I am getting plenty of alk help from the Kalkwasser.

I will take some readings tomorrow on po4, alk, and no3 and post my results. Th
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  #9  
Old 12-06-2017, 10:56 PM
iamchadster iamchadster 目前線上
ZEOhead in Training
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 19
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Tank still looks great. Keeping the pH at 8.7 with a supersaturated Kalkwasser that has only brought kH up to 8. Not ideal Zeo level but worth it a this point.

I'm happy to say that No3 and po4 have both dropped to very low levels. .50 and 0.05 respectively. The checker I use has an error of -/+ .03 so the level could be even lower. I haven't had to clean the glass for over a week now so I believe they are quite low from what I see.

I have no new Dino growth and introduced some white channels on my Radions today. The aragonite sandbed is still bright white and besides some annoying Aiptasia which I've been attacking with Aiptasia-X the live rock is clean without any sign of the Dino fuzzy look I've fought for years.

I'm almost 2 weeks into the elevated pH mode and slowly am bringing in more light. I did do about a 5% water change last night even though I didn't want to. I just had two small areas that still looked slightly brown and I wanted to remove any remaining Dinos that may be there. Today those areas look great.

Dosing continues to be daily as outlined above. I am going change out my Zeolite next week and begin dosing more inline with what the recommended schedule is for this system.

All SPS and softies seem to be really thriving. Either they like the elevated pH/the alk/ or simply not competing with the Dinos for some unknown in the water column.

Question/comments welcome. Hoping this helps someone that may be battling this stuff as I did for at least a year not knowing what it really was or what to do. I tried multiple products and wasted so much money on fixes that weren't even for the right problem and lost many corals. Needless to say, I've never had the tank look this good which I attribute to being almost Dine free, but also the dosing of the Zeovit system I had begun.
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  #10  
Old 12-10-2017, 01:05 AM
iamchadster iamchadster 目前線上
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Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 19
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A little over 2 weeks into the attack on Dinos and I have to say I'm pretty happy. The only signs so far that I ever had them are some whispy little white pieces here and there that I have to imagine is old dead biomass from the dead dinos. The tank and aragonite and liverock in the display are as clean as I have seen them in a long time. In fact I have only cleaned the glass once in 2 weeks. Before I was needing to clean it at least every couple days from the biofilm (now known to be Dinos) buildup.

I took another panel of tests tonight and found the following:
PO4 .03 or less
Alk 7.1
NO3 5-10 ppm. I say 5 to 10 because my test kit maxes out at 5 and it was just a tad darker than the 5 mark. This is kind of a surprise to me as I've always had very low NO3, but I still attribute any NO3 or PO4 to the mass dying off biomass.

Lighting is back to the spectrum I started with which follows the Ecotech's Coral Lab info, the SPSAB spectrum. Mainly a spectrum on the LED's with 100% on blue, royal blue, UV and 24% on white, green, and red. Overall I am still running a shorter photoperiod with an on-time at 0700 and off at 1300. Overall intensity is at 35% and I normally run at 50% intensity which gets me about 350 par mid-tank measure by my quantum full spectrum par meter. I have no idea what the par is right now, but I don't really care TBH as I just am not going right back to full intensity quite yet as I make sure the Dinos don't start coming back as I return the tank to normality.

Dosing is changing a bit now as I am going to eliminate Food7 and go to dosing bak at 6 drops just 3 days per week now. I will continue daily dosing of start at 0.5 mL twice daily. I am feeding my livestock with Larry's Reef Frenzy Frozen once daily in the a.m. Just enough for about 2 minutes or maybe a little more of feeding.

The biggest challenge has been keeping the pH high (8.7). I still have the five gallon bucket next to the tank with a small powerhead stirring the supersaturated mixture every five minutes. A Neptune DOS puts now almost 6000 mL per day of kalk into my system. As you can imagine this is playing with my PPT. I've found that making a slurry with kalk and RODI and dosing a little into a high flow area has been easiest and then just relying on the small amounts of the dosed kalk to keep it up there.

I plan to keep the light at the same intensity and spectrum this week and dose as outlined above. The pH will stay at the 8.7ish value as best I can.
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  #11  
Old 12-11-2017, 01:45 AM
iamchadster iamchadster 目前線上
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Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 19
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I decided to do a fairly large water change today paying special attention to vacuuming the aragonite. I tried to be as thorough as possible and changed around 15-20%. I decided to do this in an effort to get some of that NO3 down and remove as much dying Dino biomass that I can't see.

I did notice today that my SPS look healthy but have really browned up compared to when I started this a couple weeks ago. I would attribute the color change to lower light and the high NO3 levels and expect that as I increase light amounts back to a longer photoperiod and get the NO3 down that the colors return.

Current regimen is now just start twice daily 0.5mls and Bak three times a week at 6 drops.

pH continues to remain as close to 8.7 as I can maintain. It's a chore TBH to keep the pH this high constantly even with the automated dosing pump.
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  #12  
Old 12-11-2017, 11:57 PM
iamchadster iamchadster 目前線上
ZEOhead in Training
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 19
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First hiccup....High Kalk will seize certain pumps. I have two maxspect gyre xf250's that have small ceramic bearings in the end. One side on each of my opposing pumps seized up. I broke one bearing which is pennies, trying to get the bearing off, but was able to salvage the other. Had a couple spares so we are good to go. After the major water change yesterday I am happy to say that everything is looking great. No ill effects so far and nothing in the newly added saltwater that created a Dino explosion.
Sandbed is sparkling clean today and the animals look very happy. I think the drop in NO3 (I assume, but haven't measured today) helped a bit.

Bottom line, clean your susceptible pumps and equipment weekly at least to prevent damage. Lesson learned.
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  #13  
Old 12-12-2017, 10:03 PM
markalex markalex 目前線上
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Glad its going well iamchadster
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  #14  
Old Yesterday, 01:28 AM
iamchadster iamchadster 目前線上
ZEOhead in Training
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 19
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Thanks! I am almost 3 weeks into this battle and I will say that my tank has never looked as good as it does now. I am pretty sure that my confidence is going to bite me in the backside, but I don't see any signs that the infestation is coming back.

Today was fairly uneventful and continue to see improved overall health of the system. Tonight there even appears to be a slight green tint to a couple pieces of rock. I welcome any growth as for those of us that have had Dino's, know that nothing else grows when this takes over. To see another species of algae etc. growing to me is a good sign that I am over the hump and opening up real estate for another species of some type.

I am going to lengthen my photoperiod by one more hour tonight for tomorrow. Again keeping the tank as close to 8.7ish as I can.

Again, not saying all Dinos will respond to this treatment but so far so good for me.

Something else I thought of as well is the dosing aspect of this. In my scenario, I have an Apex with Dos pumps so my bolus dose to increase pH is maintained by my controller and Dos pumps. If you are going at this with minimal tech it can be done, but a lot more work as far as dosing kalk.

If I had to choose livestock or the cash for a pH controller and dosing pump there are several less expensive ways to automate this procedure and ways to do it. The key is really consistency for the animals and at the same time a slow and consistent attack on the invaders.

Cheers and please feel free to chime in.
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